Debating Duane Gish from the Institute of Creation Research

The following is a letter I wrote to the Christian Allance for Progress who ad a representative who spoke on a morning talk show in San Diego. The letter includs a description of my "debate" with Duane Gish of the Institute of Creation Research in Santee just east of San Diego.



I heard your representatives this morning on the Stacey Taylor show on AM 1360, KLSD. It was like a breath of fresh air. My wife and I grew up as committed and dedicated Christians. We served the Lord as Sunday School teachers, vacation Bible school, church board, and Christian scouting leaders. But we no longer attend church. We now cringe when someone says they are Christian.

In 1994 a Christian stealth group took over our local school district board here in Vista California. As Christians and teachers, we were torn by conflicting loyalties.

As the "Christians" on the school board became more and more outrageous. We joined with a group of community activitists, the teacher's association, the PTA and others to recall this group.

The divisions in our community are still raw. Each time a new school board election comes around we have another holy war in the community. The “little god” Christians keep coming back. Their campaigns know no limits on decency, truth, or good taste. They put out horrible and nasty untruthful hit pieces in the day or two before the election, the political signs of those who oppose the "Christian" candidates are taken down within hours of being put up. These people are a terrible witness.

They have not gotten a board majority in the five elections since. But they always manage to hang onto one or two seats. Because of their actions and rhetoric, there are a great number of people in our town who will never be interested in the church again.

I was a science teacher. I visited the Institute of Creation Research in Santee which is a fifty minutes drive away from Vista. I found a “museum” without a focus. Fossils on display with no provenance about where they were found or what they meant. They were mere props, not tools for learning.

I have also read many evolution and creation books. What I noticed was the scientists who wrote were universally more polite, more humble, more concerned with being honest than the creationist authors which were full of sarcasm and misrepresentations. Why are these self identified Christians not more Christ-like in their actions and words?

I became convinced that the 'little god" creationists were worshipping a different god than the big god of the Bible. The God of the Bible is the primary force behind the formation of an impossibly gigantic 15 billion year old universe. ICR's tiny god is only in charge of a tiny 6 thousand year old universe. Because time is size in space (speed of light being a constant) the god they worship rules a universe about the size of a beebee if the true size of the universe is represented by the size of the earth. Their tiny god is so puny compared to real true big god of the real universe.

I once debated Duane Gish the ICR's main 'debater' on National Public Radio. He started with facts or observations contradicting evolution or the age of the universe but with an attack on my faith. He claimed no one could be a genuine Christian and “believe” in evolution. I was so taken aback and momentarily silenced. Being a Christian was the core of my identity. How could I not be a Christian just because I knew that the Grand Canyon did not form in Noah's flood? (for one thing tracks of animals walk back into layers--hard to do if sediment was laid down in a few days). I was so startled by Gish's attack that it took a few minutes to respond. When I tried to answer him all he did was talk and talk and talk without leaving any time for a response from me. I could only respond by interrupting him. He would not stop even for a breath of air. I later learned that tactic was called the Gish gallop. The other side is never allowed to say anything so they cannot make any good points. It was kind of like what Fox "news" does with anyone who does agree with Bush.

How was it Christian not to want to find out the truth, not to discuss fairly? Only afterwards did I realize Gish was not after the truth or accuracy of how god created he was only after a win at any cost. No rules. Hardly a Christian way to win.

I would love to help out with science questions if you need help. I am a member of National Center for Science Education and was once a speaker for them. They are a group that defends the teaching of evolution in the public schools. I was a science teacher and have never found any contradictions with a belief in Christ or his saving grace. So he used evolution to get us here great. So what? Who are we to attack his creative plan? Evolution is our explanation of his creative force--obvious. what is the problem?


Sincerely darwindad